#4 Benelux Unlocked

00:00:01: Whichever way you look at it, it's a sizeable market with affluent people who are open to trying new things, to trying new brands, trying new ways of payment.

00:00:10: So I think it's always been interesting to come to the Netherlands.

00:00:17: Welcome to the Do Change Marketing Now podcast.

00:00:21: I'm

00:00:22: super happy to be here with my wonderful colleague, Jos Lakevan.

00:00:26: Hello, Matthias.

00:00:27: From Amsterdam.

00:00:29: We're going to talk about the Benelux market today and especially because you have so much experience with consumer brands in the Benelux market.

00:00:40: This is where we dive deep in today.

00:00:42: So welcome everyone to the show.

00:00:44: Do change marketing now, podcast, live on air.

00:00:48: This time live from Munich.

00:00:50: Munich, indeed.

00:00:51: It's basically the Oktoberfest edition.

00:00:55: But dive right into it because we have a lot of stuff to talk about.

00:01:01: So first of all, you come directly from Amsterdam.

00:01:05: That's already clear.

00:01:07: But what?

00:01:08: Do you think, from your opinion, what makes the Dutch and the Belgian market so special and so interesting for D to C brands?

00:01:17: Of course, a lot of people think they're very small countries, which they are.

00:01:21: If you look at the...

00:01:22: If I look on the map,

00:01:23: it's small.

00:01:23: Yeah, it's small.

00:01:24: But actually, it's not a small country.

00:01:26: Together, it's thirty million people.

00:01:28: So that's about half of Italy and there's only seven or eight countries in Europe who have more inhabitants.

00:01:33: So it's a very densely populated country, which means that logistically it's paradise because everything is close by.

00:01:39: But also for media it's interesting because radio is all national in both countries.

00:01:44: Out of home you can reach a nationwide audience relatively cheaply compared to France and Germany for sure, where out of home is very localized.

00:01:52: And that means that you can run a campaign in Belgium and the Netherlands or either market.

00:01:57: That's where you do reach a significant audience.

00:01:59: So you get lots of data points, but it doesn't cost you as much as testing or have the same kind of campaign in Germany or France with with an effective contact frequency.

00:02:08: So you can reach the entire population in your first campaigns.

00:02:10: And that's really interesting for a lot of clients.

00:02:13: So when we talk about Netherlands and Belgium, you know, looking there from Germany, you know, you think, okay, one or the other.

00:02:21: So, but actually, I know now that the country are different and quite different.

00:02:27: What are the main differences between Netherlands and Belgium?

00:02:32: Well, the culture is very different.

00:02:33: Also the way you do business.

00:02:34: In the Netherlands, people always say it's more similar to Germany.

00:02:37: It's more transactional, but very much business-like.

00:02:40: Most business goes over email.

00:02:42: Whereas in Belgium, especially if you're from abroad, it's very important to have a personal touch to go there in person and to look to people in the eye, have conversations, also have lunch or dinner together.

00:02:54: In that sense, it's a more warm culture.

00:02:56: It takes more time and also money to invest in relationships there but once you have the relationships they're incredibly strong.

00:03:03: I first started working in Belgium for my clients in two thousand twelve and some of the relationships I struck in the first year I still have and you build on the trust that you get from them and in the Netherlands in some centers it's easier.

00:03:17: It's more, like I said, more transactional, but I actually do like the warmth of doing business in Belgium.

00:03:22: That's really cool.

00:03:23: So when we come, this is like the culture.

00:03:25: So one thing is the culture.

00:03:27: But when we talk about TV or CTV or the media landscape, what are the main differences there?

00:03:33: Yeah, the Netherlands was a bit of a lagger when it came to addressable TV, the first steps to connect to TV, where Belgium was one of the front runners.

00:03:41: And that's just basically coincidental.

00:03:43: Because in the Netherlands, the telcos and the TV sales houses, TV owners, they were in a power struggle.

00:03:47: So nothing happened there for years and years.

00:03:49: Whereas in Belgium, one of the telcos owned a TV network.

00:03:52: So there it was very easily set up.

00:03:54: And we've had addressable TV there for, I don't know, five, six, seven years.

00:03:58: In the Netherlands, they're running the first actual campaigns this year.

00:04:01: And in terms of television, the thing is there's very strong local players there.

00:04:06: In Belgium, DPG is super strong.

00:04:08: They've always been investing lots and lots of money in local content, local.

00:04:12: productions, which I think has helped them also set up a very strong B-FOT offering.

00:04:18: And if they do it, then the rest of the market also has to do it, of course.

00:04:21: But talking about the localized content, I think, what is this language thing in Belgium?

00:04:30: I always advise brands, I want to test in Belgium and also the Netherlands to a lesser extent, that you really have to have localized creative.

00:04:38: And that doesn't mean using the Dutch TV ad or Dutch creative for Flanders and the French creative for Wallonia, because in Belgium language is basically two different countries, especially if it comes to media.

00:04:51: So the media consumption is divided strictly across the language barrier.

00:04:55: So people who are Dutch speaking, they don't watch the French channels and vice versa.

00:05:00: And because internally language is so important, you really have to have, like I said, that local aspect.

00:05:06: So use Flemish voiceover for your spots and use a balloon voiceover for your Wallonia spots.

00:05:11: And actually, there's too many anecdotes to tell about Belgium and language.

00:05:15: One of the ones I always tell is one of the first campaigns in Wallonia was for a very big client who had already spent huge budgets in Flanders and the Netherlands the previous year.

00:05:25: And the TV sales house was basically eating out of my hand.

00:05:27: They were very flexible, very keen.

00:05:29: to give us a great deal, keen to sign the future of advertisers, which was a pure player back in two thousand and twelve.

00:05:35: And so they have maximum flexibility.

00:05:39: And then they told us, hey, wait a minute, the seventy percent discount in your spot is mentioned as was on these, which is the French way of saying seventy.

00:05:46: And they said, but we say septant, so you have to change it.

00:05:49: And I was like, I was very confused.

00:05:50: I thought they were kidding.

00:05:51: So you're OK.

00:05:53: OK, next point.

00:05:54: But no, no, it's serious.

00:05:55: We can't we can't air this spot.

00:05:57: It has to has to be said septant.

00:06:00: So septant percent discount.

00:06:01: I was like,

00:06:02: what?

00:06:03: And it took like three or four emails until I understood they were really serious.

00:06:08: And we just had to deliver a new spot just because that one word was not.

00:06:12: did not fit the culture.

00:06:14: But it's good that

00:06:14: they take care and tell you.

00:06:15: Yeah,

00:06:16: they cherish their culture, but that means that it's also valuable to them.

00:06:19: And especially as a foreign advertiser, you really have to mind that and be respectful of it.

00:06:24: Yeah, it reminds me a little bit when we talk on advice, clients coming from Germany, if they want to go to Switzerland, ideally try a Swiss or Deutsch voiceover because it performs better.

00:06:36: That's the same thing, but I think here is a very intentional decision to do it.

00:06:41: And now, you know, you have worked with so many big brands now in Belgium and Netherlands and brought like a lot of big brands who are now really huge in the market, just naming brands like Hello Fresh or Emma.

00:06:56: or a used car brand, which is there.

00:07:00: And I really want to understand from your experience, is there a common success factor?

00:07:06: If you look at these kind of brands, or is that always an individual strategy, how to basically bring a new brand or new service into the Benelux market?

00:07:17: I think the reason HelloFresh and Back in the Day also is London.

00:07:21: chose the Netherlands as the first mark after Germany to really penetrate, was because of the advantages that I told you, because the population is relatively e-commerce heavy also.

00:07:30: So they are very okay with trying new things, whereas in Germany, especially with e-commerce, It took much longer for the audiences to touch bands, basically.

00:07:38: Hey, give us your money and we'll take care of your money and we'll give it to that person.

00:07:41: That's not something that was difficult to explain to the German audience in the Netherlands.

00:07:45: That was easier.

00:07:45: So choosing the Netherlands was one of the things that I think made it successful.

00:07:50: And because like I said, you have nationwide coverage with most of your media types.

00:07:56: And especially in the beginning, it's very easy to have performance-oriented analysis of your campaigns, see what works, what doesn't.

00:08:03: And really, take it market by market, like I said, Solando first did, and also Hell of Race first at the Netherlands.

00:08:08: Then they shifted southwards to Flanders, and then to Wallonia, take it market by market, analyze the specifics per market, and don't just copy-paste.

00:08:15: Definitely not copy-paste what you did in Germany or France.

00:08:18: Don't copy-paste what you did in the Netherlands, and copy-paste it to Flanders.

00:08:22: That won't work.

00:08:23: There's always the specifics.

00:08:25: have to really know the local partners.

00:08:27: And I think that's difficult if like those companies your marketing is being coordinated from abroad because then you don't see the TV station, you don't know the local partners, you don't consume the media.

00:08:39: So then you have to have a trusted partner who you can look in the eye and who are your eyes and ears in the market.

00:08:45: And I think that's very, very important that you Find somebody and of course I'd like it to be us, but if not find somebody you can trust and who is your eyes and ears in the market.

00:08:54: And because that's the thing for Belgium, a lot of companies, they don't want to have a separate media agency contact.

00:09:00: So the fact that we do that from one shop window is very interesting.

00:09:04: So if you find that agency that you can trust, I think that's a very big part of the success, because then you can confidently spend your money.

00:09:15: I think from my experience looking from Germany or more from a global brand or when I talk with global CMOs, usually when somebody tells me, oh, we want to go to Europe, nobody talks about the Benelux.

00:09:29: And so I always have to advise them, maybe this is maybe a good market to start.

00:09:35: I would be interested in, did you have a client where it was a very positive surprise for them how Benelux market worked for them?

00:09:43: I would say

00:09:44: maybe no names.

00:09:46: No names indeed.

00:09:48: Maybe not a positive surprise, but maybe a surprise in the sense that they first thought that they could crack the market in a different way and simply use the same international platforms that they used in other markets from abroad.

00:09:59: So just looking using Meta and Google and just assuming that If you use that, you reach the same people, it's going to be fine.

00:10:06: But then, yes, there's of course a lot of low-hanging food there, but that moment to scale will never come because you need that local and especially also ATL part of the strategy to be able to grow.

00:10:17: Because if you just keep using those international platforms, I think you're never really going to be truly accepted as one of the brands that people love.

00:10:25: Yeah, that's what we know from studies and research that once people see you in the real television, not talking about YouTube, real television, CTV, people trust you and your brand more.

00:10:36: And then you are actually real.

00:10:38: Oh, this is a real brand.

00:10:39: I think this is really interesting.

00:10:41: But also you mentioned the fact earlier, it sets a dense population.

00:10:46: So many people, this effect also looking at that from a German angle.

00:10:51: I feel this is so much stronger because once you activate a critical size of your audience, they are much closer together.

00:10:58: So they talk more about it and they're much more open to it.

00:11:02: Where I feel in Germany, you know, if you activate someone in Bavaria, he will probably not talk to someone in Hamburg and say, let's try this new thing.

00:11:11: So that's very interesting.

00:11:13: So for me, also another thing, because you mentioned before significant budgets.

00:11:17: So sometimes when we talk about budgets, I know the butchers are very serious.

00:11:23: You would not think that, to be honest.

00:11:25: You know, if you look at the country, you think it's a small country.

00:11:28: I

00:11:28: think that's also partly because of the Dutch people.

00:11:30: They always say, hey, we're a small country.

00:11:32: They always try to be the underdog.

00:11:34: But that's like I said, it's not fair.

00:11:35: It's not true.

00:11:36: Sometimes it bothers me because I think people can be a little bit more proud in that sense of that they can bring to brands.

00:11:43: But it's definitely a very, very impactful market.

00:11:48: So if you have to give a brand.

00:11:51: Let's assume I'm a consumer brand and I want to tackle the Benelux market.

00:11:56: What is the advice you would give me?

00:11:59: What are the one, two, three steps?

00:12:01: I really have to get right.

00:12:03: If I want to... tackle the market successfully.

00:12:07: Yeah, like I said, first find a local partner you can trust who knows the local players because I already touched upon that that's the big media owners that they have strong local platforms.

00:12:17: And when you talk about BVOT CTV, then in Belgium, DPG has a VTM Go and ads and data has a Go Play.

00:12:25: And in the Netherlands, Adelines has Videoland.

00:12:28: local brands that are bigger than most of the international platforms.

00:12:32: Bigger than Disney+, bigger than HBO Max.

00:12:35: Netflix, to be honest, is slightly bigger.

00:12:37: But if you don't know where to buy, how to buy, how to use it, and what the impact that those platforms will have, then you're never going to get a good result on your plans.

00:12:45: You're never going to get to reach that critical mass.

00:12:47: So that's the thing.

00:12:48: Localize your strategy, but also, again, localize your creatives.

00:12:53: Also, in the Netherlands, everybody speaks English.

00:12:54: Whenever there's a colleague from the US coming over, they They find it annoying that they can't even learn the local language because everybody speaks English to them.

00:13:03: Even though everybody does speak English, if you have a brand in a TV, in a break on BeFat or on TV that's English spoken, it stands out.

00:13:10: And I think it stands out in the wrong way.

00:13:12: So localize your creatives.

00:13:15: So I've just framed it on the other way around.

00:13:18: So from looking at your... experience, twenty-five years plus, you know, in advertising, media, doing campaigns for a lot of brands.

00:13:28: If you look at this, what you think are the three main mistakes you should avoid or which have been done.

00:13:36: And so our audience here from the podcast can, you know, these are the three things I should definitely avoid.

00:13:43: What you have seen or the traps people maybe have fallen into.

00:13:47: Yeah, it's just not as easy as it looks.

00:13:49: So like I said, you can't copy paste your strategy.

00:13:51: For instance, a couple of months ago, I was talking to somebody about a B-FOT campaign in Belgium, and they came up with these huge brands from the US that they wanted to buy.

00:14:01: I think they were Comcast brands.

00:14:03: and Valf TV brands like Pluto TV, which are relatively big in the UK and also Germany.

00:14:09: But if they had used that after a plan in Belgium, they probably would have only reached expats.

00:14:14: So copy-pasting is something, even if it's a big international brand, that's just a no-go.

00:14:19: You really, really have to have that localized expertise.

00:14:22: And again, like I said, if you're not in the markets, you have to have a trusted partner who can do that for you.

00:14:28: And again, you simply can't copy-paste even creatively.

00:14:32: And apart from that, you should use the media types to their strength in the market.

00:14:36: For instance, radio.

00:14:37: There's a strong local radio scene here in Germany.

00:14:40: So you can have like your campaign in Hamburg, you can A-B test.

00:14:43: In the Netherlands, it's all nationwide.

00:14:45: So you should use radio more like TV in that sense, that you're going to reach the entire nation.

00:14:49: It's not a local strengthening of your media plans.

00:14:52: So yeah, it all comes down to knowing the market.

00:14:55: And if you don't know it yourself, find somebody who knows.

00:14:57: Yeah, but it's a very special situation in Germany because it was after the Second World War where it split up the radio frequencies because it was really about not using radio as a multiple media for...

00:15:13: I never knew that.

00:15:14: Yeah, that's the dark history of Germany.

00:15:17: Something learned.

00:15:18: Yeah, but that's the reason why it is, but that's also why we in Germany have to explain that radio is... big medium, a big opportunity sometimes to activate, which is really great.

00:15:29: So coming back, I think one hot topic, which is basically everywhere now in the advertising is the development of CTV and linear TV moving to CTV.

00:15:39: And of course for us as DC man, it's a big, big thing.

00:15:42: So.

00:15:43: But what is here?

00:15:45: the development in the Benelux market?

00:15:48: And how do you see it?

00:15:50: compare it to maybe Germany or the UK and get a feeling for it?

00:15:54: I think the most remarkable thing is that TV is still, I think, the step one in the Netherlands.

00:16:00: Whereas in the UK, I've heard the strategy is now, see TV first and then TV to optimize.

00:16:05: In the Netherlands, TV is still by far the most efficient way to reach the masses.

00:16:10: But CTV is, of course, but ratings, linear ratings are in decline as all over the world.

00:16:15: So CTV is very much up and coming.

00:16:17: But although the inventory isn't really there yet for advertisers, Prime Video only started with a soft launch in the Netherlands on the twenty sixth of August this year.

00:16:26: So only for a month and a half.

00:16:28: In Belgium, they haven't started yet.

00:16:30: They'll start next year.

00:16:31: Netflix doesn't have an ad here and Disney is not active in Belgium with their ad here.

00:16:35: So is that because of the strong local platforms?

00:16:38: I don't know.

00:16:39: But at least it's clear that the inventory is not as developed as it is in Germany and for sure the UK.

00:16:45: But that's interesting because that does mean that the high CPMs that we're seeing now, they're going to be lower.

00:16:51: When I was at the Disney offices in London, they told me about the CPM development in the US.

00:16:56: Once there was more competition there and they dropped also from thirty eight to twenty one or something like that.

00:17:02: So that's I'm looking forward to that because the CPM right now is still very high at least.

00:17:07: if you compare eighteen plus CPMs.

00:17:09: Yes.

00:17:09: On the other hand, if you can use interesting data segmentation in your campaigns on some connected television, then of course you can cut out the waste and then the CPM is justifiable.

00:17:20: For instance, in Belgium we have a DPG, because in Belgium somehow there's more possible with data.

00:17:26: The Netherlands is basically just the social demos, social demo targeting.

00:17:31: In Belgium at DPG we can use retail data from the biggest supermarket and the biggest pet store.

00:17:37: Meaning that, let's say your dog food and brand and you want to advertise, if you then compare TV to CTV, TV is still a lot cheaper in terms of cost per GRP and CPM.

00:17:47: However, at CTV, connected to VmbFOT, you can cut out the seventy percent waste for them of people who don't own pets.

00:17:56: And then the CPM can be three times as high to have the same effective CPM for them, because for them, somebody who doesn't own a pet is actual waste.

00:18:06: Of course, for companies with broader products or services like Vintage or HelloFresh, waste isn't really waste.

00:18:11: But for advertisers like that, enriching your campaigns with data is super, super powerful and can be a game changer.

00:18:22: Amazing.

00:18:23: I think this is really about comes down to know the market, know what opportunities you have, you know, because I think even we talk about the Benelux market, but, you know, very, very, obviously very complex.

00:18:37: So what is your takeaway?

00:18:39: And maybe just looking at the next one or two years, where do you think the markets will develop?

00:18:46: In terms of CTV, I think that's most interesting, because yeah, linear TV will develop just.

00:18:52: Of course, it will stable out a little bit and it will always be there, I think.

00:18:56: But in terms of CTV, a negative thing would be that we're already seeing that impact of an impression is becoming smaller.

00:19:03: because the ad pressure is becoming higher.

00:19:05: At Videolond in the Netherlands, they initially, like two years ago, there was only one pre-roll and then it became two.

00:19:12: Right now, there's three sometimes.

00:19:14: There's also other platforms where you have like nine or twelve mid-rolls, which means that it's like a TV break.

00:19:19: And then one of the key USPORT briefwater connected TV is gone because it's way too long and you don't have the impact.

00:19:25: And then this higher CPM is definitely not justified.

00:19:28: So that's going to diminish the impact.

00:19:30: On the other hand, we have more competition coming in.

00:19:33: We have to be, like I said, prime video.

00:19:36: Once Netflix comes, it will also have a huge impact.

00:19:39: And more players will mean more competition, more impressions, lower CPMs.

00:19:43: So then that will, of course, offset the lower impact.

00:19:46: But I think that's definitely, if either of those get exaggerated, then it's either very good or bad for advertisers.

00:19:51: My last question for you, Jos, is why do you think if a brand is thinking about you know, entering the Benelux market.

00:19:59: Why do you think right now is a good moment to do that?

00:20:03: I think it's always been a good moment.

00:20:06: Whichever way you look at it, it's a sizable market with affluent people who are open trying new things, trying new brands, trying new ways of payment.

00:20:15: So I think it's always been interesting to come to the Netherlands.

00:20:19: If you have a lot of marketing budget and you can basically buy the entire market share, That's nice, but even if you don't have that, there's definitely ways with the strong local players to reach your audience effectively.

00:20:31: And like I said, that threshold and having impact on moving the needle is lower because of the densely populated area that we're talking about.

00:20:39: Fantastic.

00:20:40: It was a big pleasure doing this podcast with you.

00:20:43: Thanks so much for coming over.

00:20:46: And this was the Do Change Marketing Now podcast version with Jos Lachemann, country head of DCMN in the Benelux.

00:20:53: And if you want to do a campaign or thinking about it or need advice to how to successfully enter the Benelux market, then reach out to your Lachemann.

00:21:04: You can find him on LinkedIn or to me.

00:21:06: And I'm happy to make an introduction at hello at dcmann.com.

00:21:09: It was fantastic to have you here.

00:21:12: And next time on the Do Change Marketing Now podcast, we dive way deeper into a lot of topics when we talk about more of total video data.

00:21:23: Okay, so and what data we can use to do a great CTV campaign, you know, in all the markets.

00:21:29: Today you have a smart peeps, a smart person at the other side

00:21:31: of the screen.

00:21:32: Yeah, already a super smart person.

00:21:34: Thank you very much.

00:21:35: You're welcome.

00:21:36: See you.